"sort of" Part 1 = HERE. "Do you think Jesus really cares if you... (thoughts on knowledge & action)"
Join the conversation/read the plethora of comments on the above post HERE.
"sort of" Part 2 HERE. "what you do IS what you believe"]
Hopefully you've read the above posts and caught up on any background you need because I'm jumping right in...
Something has screwed "our" (the Western, Modern [as in "modernity"] Church's) idea of discipleship. I'm convinced it's jacked.
It's probably jacked in more ways than I or anyone even realizes, but I am CONVINCED we are WAY OFF in our scary idolatry for Bible knowledge and our equating that knowledge of facts with discipleship!
That's a Western thing. That's a Modern thing. That's NOT a Jesus thing. [haha -> ADD alert = that old school All-Star United song "This Jesus Thing" just popped in my head when I wrote that. wow. flashback.]
Discipleship = FOLLOWING Jesus... it's LIVING like Jesus lived. (not just knowing more about Him.)
just check out John 10:10; Jesus did NOT come so we could have "doctrine" or "knowledge" or even "belief"... like we said yesterday - knowledge was never the end! It's just a doorway to LIFE & a certain way of LIVING. It's all about living!
Just like I said in Part 1 - Jesus cares about how we LIVE! That's following Him, not what we know or believe...
Then WHY is pretty much all discipleship in the U.S. NOT training to live, but basically INDOCTRINATION? It seems like all of discipleship is = "read this. memorize this. learn this system. defend this." You know what I mean?
*it's NOT about knowledge. it's NOT about checking things off a checklist! But why when someone wants to be discipled at their church do they pair them up with some dude and they hand them a workbook with 10-20 doctrines and after they learn those and check them off then *BOOM*, they're a disciple. (That's pretty close to the process that's used at most churches with slight variations.) "Just know this list & you're a disciple. The more you know, the better and deeper and more mature a disciple you are." I'll admit it, I grew up hearing/learning/breathing this in. But of course, that's crap.
All of you would have to agree that Jesus would rather us be known for the WAY WE LIVE than for our doctrinal statements! Right? I don't really know if Jesus would have a doctrinal statement if He walked on earth right now. I don't think He would need one because everybody could SEE it!
Of course I'm not saying that Bible knowledge is bad. I have a degree in theology & am in seminary for crying out loud. I'm a readaholic & gaining knowledge all the time. BUT a guy who knows all the doctrine & has all the Bible knowledge in the world and is even "discipling" (passing that "knowledge" on to others) but doesn't give generously, doesn't love His wife like Jesus loved the Church, doesn't love His neighbor, doesn't worship God furiously and passionately, isn't consumed with making God famous, doesn't love the poor, doesn't help the poor, isn't merciful or humble, etc... is NOT a disciple! not even close. And I'm sad to say that I've met A LOT of those guys! They're the ones "discipling" others.
I think that makes Jesus feel like it makes me feel = nauseous.
I definitely don't have all the answers. I'm just thinking out loud. But I'm convinced there is a better way (than is currently being practiced) for us to all become Jesus followers.
Let's talk about it! What are your thoughts?
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5 comments:
Patrick,
What you believe has a direct affect on how you behave. If we are not careful we do begin to "indoctrinate" young Christians and not clearly teach them how to live out what has been taught them.
Christ did have a doctrinal statement and He would make it known again today and that is the Great Commission, go, give, baptize, disciple.
If not careful we begin to carefully point fingers at others using slain words to describe the activities of others, when we should be directing our thoughts to the Lord.
I will admit with all my heart that I dont believe God is at all pleased with Modern Christianity, but where will differ most likely is where God is not pleased. I dont believe our Lord is pleased at all with how we have introduced the world to the church. We seem to have this secular mentality of reaching the lost, water down God's Word, dress the way we want to dress, bring in the world's music. Christ not one time every sought to blend into the world's system to "seek and to save." What Christ did was to be above reproach in reaching the lost. What God has taught me through His Word is that He does not use a worldly Christian or worldly church to reach the world for Him. The Apostle Paul did not lower his standards to reach the church of Corinth, if he did anything he raised the standard and lived as Christ would. The 21st Century church needs to slow down being like a 21st century church and intensify their efforts of being more like a 1st century church.
I appreciate your thoughts, some we agree on and some we must disagree on.
Jesus most definitely blended into the world! That isn't the same as saying he believed differently than the world. He was "in it but not of it"--just as his followers should be. Relevance isn't a license for ungodliness--no argument there. But, Jesus interestingly didn't come speaking Italian or French he spoke the vernacular of the day. He wore the garb of the day. He spoke about fishing to the fisherman and farming to the agrarian society. He better than any of us could imagine stayed relevant to his culture. Speaking in clear terms; using analogies, language, or music that are relevant to people's lives; or using stories to communicate truth isn't the same as watering something down. If it is then his parables were saturated with H20 too--and I'm pretty sure they weren't! Part of fulfilling the great commission is embedded in using words unchurched people can understand...Paul too understood the need for relevance or he wouldn't have quoted the secular poets of his day to grab the attention of the people of Athens as he presented them with the truth. Truthfully, I think the early church understood this far better than we do. Yet we used them as our reason for not "being relevant".
Pastor Josh said....
Patrick,
I completely agree!! What if Jesus offered a 9 week teaching session to the disciples, rather than a three year trip into lifestyle. I do think Jesus reached down into the lifestyles of the sinners, not to join them, but rather to reach them where they were. His ultimate desire is to see them reached where they were so that they can be brought to where He wanted them to be. Ray VanDerlaan does an entire study into this philosophy, and I highly recommend all to look it up. It is a 8 DVD set that reaches us(Western civilization) with the concepts of scripture as understood by an Hebrew(one that scripture was written specifically for). It is called faith lessons, however one of the topics he approaches under the idea of discipleship is the Hebrew perspective. A Hebrew that chose a Rabbi....Thats right backwards of what happen to you and me praise the Lord...would follow his Rabbi everywhere and become like him in every possible way. Why is it when we teach discipleship we decide to teach only doctrine. Again Christ obviously taught a great deal of doctrine, but He took the Hebrew rejects....Chose them....and challenged them to follow, learn, and be like Him in every possible way. 9 weeks isn't discipleship....thats not even curiosity!
not sure if i should really be commenting when i'm this tired... i might not wanna be held accountable for what leaks out of my brain. jk
pastor t - how in the world did you start talking about the way the church dresses and waters down God's Word from what i wrote? i'm not really seeing a connection from what i wrote to "bringing in the world's music."
but, since you said it = you're right... we do disagree very much. i'm a little baffled by your statement "Christ not one time every sought to blend into the world's system..." He WAS absolutely part of that culture, 100%! He contextualized His message beautifully for the culture He immersed Himself in! That seems very obvious to me. He was as missional & relevant as it gets!
& just the fact that He launched a 1ST CENTURY church proves that!!! it was relevant to that time period and culture!!! I WONDER IF PEEPS WERE TELLING JESUS HE NEEDED TO "SLOW DOWN BEING LIKE A 1ST CENTURY CHURCH AND INTENSIFY HIS EFFORTS OF BEING MORE LIKE A 5TH CENTURY BC RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATION" ??? you seem to have contradicted yourself with that one.
glad we can agree to disagree though & thanks for sharing your opinions.
chris - right on! as usual. and much more eloquent than me. should have read that before i wrote my above comment & i wouldn't even have needed to write all that.
pastor josh - thanks for the recommendation on the dvds... i like some of Ray's stuff i've seen in the past. i used to frequent his website = follow the rabbi. haven't been there in a while. he's def. a smart dude fo shizzle...
good thoughts man. thanks for sharing!
I think we have got to know the Bible and all it says in order to live it. But that is where the Holy Spirit comes in. Christ said that He would give us the H.S. to guide and direct us in all truth. He is the One who shows us and teaches us how to live.
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